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	<title>Comments on: Putting Liquid Fuels in Perspective-A Visit to Perdido (part 1)</title>
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	<link>http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/01/putting-liquid-fuels-in-perspective-a-visit-to-perdido-part-1/</link>
	<description>Truth in Energy</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Don Hirschberg</title>
		<link>http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/01/putting-liquid-fuels-in-perspective-a-visit-to-perdido-part-1/#comment-288</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hirschberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 03:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspousa.org/?p=735#comment-288</guid>
		<description>Peter Goodspeed had a story in the National Post dated January 15 about a forthcoming comprehesive report by the Pentagon. It's also on ASPO-USA, today. I recommend it.

"Between now and 2030, worldwide demand for energy will increase 50%. New sources, such as wind and solar power, are unlikely to account for more than 1% of global energy by 2030 and fossil fuels will continue to account for 80%."

One percent and 80%? But these numbers are what we have today. So the study says, in effect, that new sources such as wind and solar will increase at the same rate as total demand. Supppose they are wrong and the world does far beter and increases them at twice their projected rate in the study? Then in 2030 we might have 2% of our energy from new sources including wind and solar and, 79% fossil fuels. But this 79% would be about 50% higher than present fossil fuel usage - if that's possible.

The "all of the above 15" tactics don't seem to make much sense in the global picture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Goodspeed had a story in the National Post dated January 15 about a forthcoming comprehesive report by the Pentagon. It&#8217;s also on ASPO-USA, today. I recommend it.</p>
<p>&#8220;Between now and 2030, worldwide demand for energy will increase 50%. New sources, such as wind and solar power, are unlikely to account for more than 1% of global energy by 2030 and fossil fuels will continue to account for 80%.&#8221;</p>
<p>One percent and 80%? But these numbers are what we have today. So the study says, in effect, that new sources such as wind and solar will increase at the same rate as total demand. Supppose they are wrong and the world does far beter and increases them at twice their projected rate in the study? Then in 2030 we might have 2% of our energy from new sources including wind and solar and, 79% fossil fuels. But this 79% would be about 50% higher than present fossil fuel usage - if that&#8217;s possible.</p>
<p>The &#8220;all of the above 15&#8243; tactics don&#8217;t seem to make much sense in the global picture.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Benson</title>
		<link>http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/01/putting-liquid-fuels-in-perspective-a-visit-to-perdido-part-1/#comment-281</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspousa.org/?p=735#comment-281</guid>
		<description>As much as I agree with the "all of the above" strategy, I have to remind everyone that we are very used to having one grade of motor fuel -- 87 octane gasoline -- that is available at all 160,000+ U.S. filling stations (owned by hundreds of companies) around the country.  Turning the fueling of a car or truck into a complex effort by having 4-8 different fueling options (gasoline/methanol/ethanol/natural gas/propane/hydrogen/electricity/battery swap) at some gas stations (many stations will not have all the options) means that you will need a map &#38; cross your fingers when you have to find a station in the location were your vehicle is or is heading.  Your station may or may not have the fuel in stock on any given day.  We've gotten very lazy having just one standard vehicle fuel (gasoline).  Life is going to be a lot more complicated with multiple fuels and multiple fuel vehicles.  Let's not pat ourselves on the back too hard at our "solutioning".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As much as I agree with the &#8220;all of the above&#8221; strategy, I have to remind everyone that we are very used to having one grade of motor fuel &#8212; 87 octane gasoline &#8212; that is available at all 160,000+ U.S. filling stations (owned by hundreds of companies) around the country.  Turning the fueling of a car or truck into a complex effort by having 4-8 different fueling options (gasoline/methanol/ethanol/natural gas/propane/hydrogen/electricity/battery swap) at some gas stations (many stations will not have all the options) means that you will need a map &amp; cross your fingers when you have to find a station in the location were your vehicle is or is heading.  Your station may or may not have the fuel in stock on any given day.  We&#8217;ve gotten very lazy having just one standard vehicle fuel (gasoline).  Life is going to be a lot more complicated with multiple fuels and multiple fuel vehicles.  Let&#8217;s not pat ourselves on the back too hard at our &#8220;solutioning&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hirschberg</title>
		<link>http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/01/putting-liquid-fuels-in-perspective-a-visit-to-perdido-part-1/#comment-278</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hirschberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspousa.org/?p=735#comment-278</guid>
		<description>One has to wonder. The taboo against even mentioning population as a problem seems to be pervasive even amongst otherwise rational people. Religious people don’t need to explain what they believe. They are programmed by their religion. I can accept that and have no argument with them. But I do have an argument with scientists and engineers and all those who want their beliefs to stand some tests of credibility other than it’s in some religious scripture.

Too many people on this planet is not just a problem. It is the problem.

Either there have been no readers of my and Spoley’s comments above, or those who have read them are so cowed to violate pc standards that they remain mute. Population is the problem. Until this is faced all other “solutions” are fatuous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One has to wonder. The taboo against even mentioning population as a problem seems to be pervasive even amongst otherwise rational people. Religious people don’t need to explain what they believe. They are programmed by their religion. I can accept that and have no argument with them. But I do have an argument with scientists and engineers and all those who want their beliefs to stand some tests of credibility other than it’s in some religious scripture.</p>
<p>Too many people on this planet is not just a problem. It is the problem.</p>
<p>Either there have been no readers of my and Spoley’s comments above, or those who have read them are so cowed to violate pc standards that they remain mute. Population is the problem. Until this is faced all other “solutions” are fatuous.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Spoley</title>
		<link>http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/01/putting-liquid-fuels-in-perspective-a-visit-to-perdido-part-1/#comment-265</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Spoley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspousa.org/?p=735#comment-265</guid>
		<description>As far as I am concerned you left off the big ONE on your list and that is DEMAND DESTRUCTION (read curtailment). Face it. Every person on the planet wants and will do the best for themselves and their kind (kin). Net result! Upward pressure on ALL forms of energy. Using different forms of energy will lower the increasing rate of upward demand, but it will still be UP!!
How to get it down? How do you actually lower the demand for any and all kinds of energy and still do the best you can for you and yours? That is what it will take. No ifs, ands, or buts. 
Simply put, there are too many of us. All tax policies and economics, worldwide, emphasize growth and reward it. That has to stop. Savings, reductions, efficiency etc. need to be rewarded. Only with these concepts can we have the best of both worlds. Who do we see about that??

RJS in OKC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as I am concerned you left off the big ONE on your list and that is DEMAND DESTRUCTION (read curtailment). Face it. Every person on the planet wants and will do the best for themselves and their kind (kin). Net result! Upward pressure on ALL forms of energy. Using different forms of energy will lower the increasing rate of upward demand, but it will still be UP!!<br />
How to get it down? How do you actually lower the demand for any and all kinds of energy and still do the best you can for you and yours? That is what it will take. No ifs, ands, or buts.<br />
Simply put, there are too many of us. All tax policies and economics, worldwide, emphasize growth and reward it. That has to stop. Savings, reductions, efficiency etc. need to be rewarded. Only with these concepts can we have the best of both worlds. Who do we see about that??</p>
<p>RJS in OKC</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/01/putting-liquid-fuels-in-perspective-a-visit-to-perdido-part-1/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspousa.org/?p=735#comment-258</guid>
		<description>This was an interesting tour of a new oil project. I can tell the writer has an interest in allowing drilling (the fish love it thing sounds very McCain-y) which is fine and kind of lightens the bluntness of comparing perdido to cantarell. 

Put a link to this on my site, hope someone stops by.

-mike</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was an interesting tour of a new oil project. I can tell the writer has an interest in allowing drilling (the fish love it thing sounds very McCain-y) which is fine and kind of lightens the bluntness of comparing perdido to cantarell. </p>
<p>Put a link to this on my site, hope someone stops by.</p>
<p>-mike</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hirschberg</title>
		<link>http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/01/putting-liquid-fuels-in-perspective-a-visit-to-perdido-part-1/#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hirschberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspousa.org/?p=735#comment-257</guid>
		<description>Many of us were aware of the energy dilemma when the world had half as many people. And there were calls for conservation, increased efficiency, more use of public transportation.  But at that time we had more than twice the natural resources (notably oil) per person than we do today. When we had “only” three billion we had a good chance of coping with the impending energy dilemma. Today with 6.7 billion and still increasing at almost 0.1 billion per year with much less oil, much less fresh water and building almost daily a new coal-burning power plant our chances are much less.
There is not a single “clean” coal fuelled power plant on the planet.  As far as I know there is not even a CO2 capture pilot plant. Every year millions of new oil burning vehicles (most, not as replacements but as additions) go on the road).
Are 1.1 billion Indians going to solve their severe present power shortage with nuclear plants that cost several times as much as coal plants they haven’t been able to afford?
When I look at your “all of the above list” of 15 it seems to say: Because there is no longer a solution, suck it up, grab at any straw and everybody bail faster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many of us were aware of the energy dilemma when the world had half as many people. And there were calls for conservation, increased efficiency, more use of public transportation.  But at that time we had more than twice the natural resources (notably oil) per person than we do today. When we had “only” three billion we had a good chance of coping with the impending energy dilemma. Today with 6.7 billion and still increasing at almost 0.1 billion per year with much less oil, much less fresh water and building almost daily a new coal-burning power plant our chances are much less.<br />
There is not a single “clean” coal fuelled power plant on the planet.  As far as I know there is not even a CO2 capture pilot plant. Every year millions of new oil burning vehicles (most, not as replacements but as additions) go on the road).<br />
Are 1.1 billion Indians going to solve their severe present power shortage with nuclear plants that cost several times as much as coal plants they haven’t been able to afford?<br />
When I look at your “all of the above list” of 15 it seems to say: Because there is no longer a solution, suck it up, grab at any straw and everybody bail faster.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford J. Wirth, Ph.D.</title>
		<link>http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/01/putting-liquid-fuels-in-perspective-a-visit-to-perdido-part-1/#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford J. Wirth, Ph.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.aspousa.org/?p=735#comment-256</guid>
		<description>I agree with most of this, and wish to add that the best source for energy policy advice is the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). 

Wind turbines sound practical, but we do not need more electric power as factories, offices, and commercial centers close. Electric power does not address the liquid fuels problem of moving tractors/combines and trucks. And much fossil energy is used to manufacture, transport, and maintain wind turbines. It is not just the energy used to mine, transport, and process bauxite ore, as well as the energy used to manufacture and transport the wind turbines. We must also count all of the energy used in transporting all of the workers who make the thousands of turbine parts all over the world, and all of the energy used in the factories, and the pay and dividends of all the workers and stock holders who will use oil when they spend wages and dividends on vacations, cars, boats, and housing construction etc. 

Thus wind turbines use up liquid fuels (which we need) to get electric power, which we don't need and can't use. There is no plan nor capital for an electric economy. Heavy electric trucks can travel 40 MPH for 100 miles on a level surface and then need a 5 hour recharge. With hills this would be cut back considerably. Electric tractors/combines are not practical, as they would go an hour before needing a recharge of 5 hours. Diesel tractors run 8, 12, or 24 hours per day without stopping. Even if there were a plan for an electric economy, the infrastructure makeover would take a trillion dollars and 10 years to implement. 

We need to plan for Peak Oil impacts. We know we are at Peak Oil now, according to most independent studies and what the International Energy Agency says between the lines in interviews. And we know that the alternatives are not going to make up for a significant portion of the liquid fuels gap (according to the U.S. General Accountability Office study: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07283.pdf )

This is where the NAS can help, by alerting the nation, Congress, and the president about Peak Oil and the problems ahead. This is a catastrophe that requires the policy advice of NAS for the nation. Politicians will not break the bad news to the public, but the NAS would. 

This is not the place for a cacophony of interest groups, bloggers, environmentalists, engineers, geologisst, academics, and energy companies to advise the president and Congress. The president and Congress will need the advice of NAS as this catastrophe unfolds. The NAS is the only source that has the necessary credibility to advise the nation on how to face this challenge:

With increasing costs for gasoline and diesel, along with declining taxes and declining gasoline tax revenues, states and local governments will eventually have to cut staff and curtail highway maintenance. Eventually, gasoline stations will close, and state and local highway workers won’t be able to get to work. We are facing the collapse of the highways that depend on diesel and gasoline powered trucks for bridge maintenance, culvert cleaning to avoid road washouts, snow plowing, and roadbed and surface repair. 

When the highways fail, so will the power grid, as highways carry the parts, large transformers, steel for pylons, and high tension cables from great distances. With the highways out, there will be no food coming from far away, and without the power grid virtually nothing modern works, including home heating, pumping of gasoline and diesel, airports, communications, and automated building systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with most of this, and wish to add that the best source for energy policy advice is the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). </p>
<p>Wind turbines sound practical, but we do not need more electric power as factories, offices, and commercial centers close. Electric power does not address the liquid fuels problem of moving tractors/combines and trucks. And much fossil energy is used to manufacture, transport, and maintain wind turbines. It is not just the energy used to mine, transport, and process bauxite ore, as well as the energy used to manufacture and transport the wind turbines. We must also count all of the energy used in transporting all of the workers who make the thousands of turbine parts all over the world, and all of the energy used in the factories, and the pay and dividends of all the workers and stock holders who will use oil when they spend wages and dividends on vacations, cars, boats, and housing construction etc. </p>
<p>Thus wind turbines use up liquid fuels (which we need) to get electric power, which we don&#8217;t need and can&#8217;t use. There is no plan nor capital for an electric economy. Heavy electric trucks can travel 40 MPH for 100 miles on a level surface and then need a 5 hour recharge. With hills this would be cut back considerably. Electric tractors/combines are not practical, as they would go an hour before needing a recharge of 5 hours. Diesel tractors run 8, 12, or 24 hours per day without stopping. Even if there were a plan for an electric economy, the infrastructure makeover would take a trillion dollars and 10 years to implement. </p>
<p>We need to plan for Peak Oil impacts. We know we are at Peak Oil now, according to most independent studies and what the International Energy Agency says between the lines in interviews. And we know that the alternatives are not going to make up for a significant portion of the liquid fuels gap (according to the U.S. General Accountability Office study: <a href="http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07283.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07283.pdf</a> )</p>
<p>This is where the NAS can help, by alerting the nation, Congress, and the president about Peak Oil and the problems ahead. This is a catastrophe that requires the policy advice of NAS for the nation. Politicians will not break the bad news to the public, but the NAS would. </p>
<p>This is not the place for a cacophony of interest groups, bloggers, environmentalists, engineers, geologisst, academics, and energy companies to advise the president and Congress. The president and Congress will need the advice of NAS as this catastrophe unfolds. The NAS is the only source that has the necessary credibility to advise the nation on how to face this challenge:</p>
<p>With increasing costs for gasoline and diesel, along with declining taxes and declining gasoline tax revenues, states and local governments will eventually have to cut staff and curtail highway maintenance. Eventually, gasoline stations will close, and state and local highway workers won’t be able to get to work. We are facing the collapse of the highways that depend on diesel and gasoline powered trucks for bridge maintenance, culvert cleaning to avoid road washouts, snow plowing, and roadbed and surface repair. </p>
<p>When the highways fail, so will the power grid, as highways carry the parts, large transformers, steel for pylons, and high tension cables from great distances. With the highways out, there will be no food coming from far away, and without the power grid virtually nothing modern works, including home heating, pumping of gasoline and diesel, airports, communications, and automated building systems.</p>
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